new developement
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Tangled Web Offline
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#1
new developement
So here is the thing...........my T wants to take things to the next level with us. She told me that if I email her information she wants to start talking about it in our sessions. She said it is good I can write about things and that is the first step but now she wants to start talking about what is written and sent to her. Now here lies the problem.............I don't talk about things. I write about them. I don't know how to talk about things. I feel like I have ran smack dap into a brick wall. Needless to say I have stopped emailing her. I don't even know where to start. I have tried looking at this and have tried to wrap my head around her suggestion and I have tried to get ourselves ready to start the talking but nothing...............absolutely nothing..........like I am starring into a black hole and see nothing. I think well there is just nothing to say, which I know is not true but that is how it feels. I see nothing, I hear nothing, it is almost like I know nothing, which I also know is not true. I don't know how to do this. I have absolutely no idea how to even look at it. Nothing is there anymore. How do just start talking about stuff? I have no idea.
Tangled
"You may not remember what someone says or does, but you will never forget how they made you feel" Mac Anderson.
08-05-2013, 12:56 PM
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Tangled Web Offline
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#2
RE: new developement
And it isn't that I don't want to talk about this stuff.............well I guess a part me doesn't, but I want to heal and if I need to talk about it that is what I want to do, I just don't know how. Even as I type that last sentence it sounds so stupid me, what do you mean you don't know how to talk, you just open your mouth and start talking. Well I open my mouth and nothing comes out. My mind goes blank and I have absolutely nothing to say. It might be a defensive thing that is happening but I don't know how to get around it. I don't know how to get control over it. I don't know what is even behind it. And I don't know what to do to fix it.
TW
"You may not remember what someone says or does, but you will never forget how they made you feel" Mac Anderson.
08-05-2013, 10:44 PM
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Cammy Offline
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#3
RE: new developement
Pretend you're writing in your own journal. At the session you still have control over what you will or will not discuss. At least you won't be looking at a blank page anymore. Igraine.
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(This post was last modified: 08-06-2013, 12:47 AM by Cammy.)
08-06-2013, 12:46 AM
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Cammy Offline
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#4
RE: new developement
Pretend your writing in your own journal. At the session you still have control over what you will or will not discuss. At leapt you won't be looking at a blank page anymore. Igraine.
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Disclaimer: Any words or phrases used in our posts are meant in a completely respectful manner. Please know that we always endeavour to be kind and supportive.
08-06-2013, 12:48 AM
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tweeter Offline
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#5
RE: new developement
(08-05-2013, 10:44 PM)Tangled Web Wrote: And it isn't that I don't want to talk about this stuff.............well I guess a part me doesn't, but I want to heal and if I need to talk about it that is what I want to do, I just don't know how. Even as I type that last sentence it sounds so stupid me, what do you mean you don't know how to talk, you just open your mouth and start talking. Well I open my mouth and nothing comes out. My mind goes blank and I have absolutely nothing to say. It might be a defensive thing that is happening but I don't know how to get around it. I don't know how to get control over it. I don't know what is even behind it. And I don't know what to do to fix it.
TW

I've been following this thread with interest for a number of reasons. I was waiting for you to supply your own answer, or partial answer, which you did. It can take time. ".....well I guess a part me doesn't,"
Bingo. First, someone doesn't want to speak, maybe can't, but is willing to write. Second thing that comes to mind is whether there are certain words, in the context of a T situation, which cannot be spoken, but can be written, or gotten around more easily in a letter format?

An important question is whether only one mode of writing is allowed. Like I write you a letter and you write me a letter, or is instant messaging back and forth okay? These are very different kinds of communication, especially, in terms of immediacy, but both written.

Next. Is there a significant difference (complexity of expression, connection to and expression of feelings, the abstract, etc.) between your written and spoken ways?

Next. Can you find yourself wandering in a maze of feelings, thoughts and associations, which scatter and then come together in one conclusive sentence, or even one word different upon repetition of a given subject matter? I'm talking about ways of thinking specifically when going below the surface of consciousness (my personal interest). The communication inside (for a singleton as well) is not the same. You might require the proverbial bread crumb trail to connect the dots, and might forget how everything fits together if there is no physical documentation to work with. Even then, the connections can become fuzzy, which I regard as normal, but the conclusion is clear, though even that can diffuse into what you will come to regard as normalcy for you, or be lost if you don't claim it. Yes, I am describing part of my life experience, in which one of my interests is to examining my deepest motivations and wishes, along with the outside influences on them. All of this to make right decisions, and to understand my mistakes (because they will be most certainly repeated if I can't connect with Me, and separate that from what has been expected of me........).

But, I digress. I am not a T. Nor have I been in T. So, I ain't no expert. But, I know some things via my own very hard work, especially over the past 8 or so years. I know that thinking, feeling, talking and writing can give different sounding results for a number of reasons, not the least of which is differences in ability to express, or even access itself.

I am hoping what I've written has helped. I also feel that if you can find a way to articulate why you are reacting as you are, maybe an evolving solution can be found, rather than an all-or-nothing demand. For instance is there a way that letters can be used separately, and some agreed upon subjects brought into the spoken world? Maybe T can give short replies, in writing, and spoken in the same way, during a session. Then maybe a quiet time. Do you doodle or draw....., maybe including 1-5 written words. Then, go to a different topic that can be discussed. I mean, work with it.

Indeed, sometimes a completely direct approach is impossible. I don't mean that sneaky means replace that. Not at all! I'm trying to remember an example. It might have to do with looking at star formations in the sky. Okay, let's say it is. If one looks directly, one fails to see properly. But focussing a bit to the side, and yes, it all comes into focus. Or, direct confrontation is not always the best route, and can lead to lack of clarity. Not everything can, or wants to be looked at that way.

tweeter
"Even the very emptiest of the emptiest
Has a false bottom, a false bottom."
08-06-2013, 12:58 PM
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Tangled Web Offline
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#6
RE: new developement
I've been following this thread with interest for a number of reasons. I was waiting for you to supply your own answer, or partial answer, which you did. It can take time. ".....well I guess a part me doesn't,"
Bingo. First, someone doesn't want to speak, maybe can't, but is willing to write. Second thing that comes to mind is whether there are certain words, in the context of a T situation, which cannot be spoken, but can be written, or gotten around more easily in a letter format?

Things are always easier when they are written for us. It seems to have become the safest way to express ourselves and when we are writing, things are so much more clearer and put together and can be understood. We can actually follow a train of thought from start to finish but when we are face to face with someone in a talking mode, we can’t do that. Things go blank and we actually lose the words and thoughts.

An important question is whether only one mode of writing is allowed. Like I write you a letter and you write me a letter, or is instant messaging back and forth okay? These are very different kinds of communication, especially, in terms of immediacy, but both written.

I enjoy instant messaging and it is my preferred way of communicating either through my Yahoo messenger or texting. I also write emails but I like that instant gratification of messaging and not having to wait too long for responses.

Next. Is there a significant difference (complexity of expression, connection to and expression of feelings, the abstract, etc.) between your written and spoken ways?

Well I have been told I am able to write quite well and I express myself quite well in my writings but when speaking I don’t. I write the way I would normally speak but can’t speak the way I write unless I write it out first. I do not really connect to my feelings unless it is anger and I guess I can write about how I am feeling without actually expressing those feelings (hope that makes sense). I don’t speak about feelings very well or connect to what is being said anymore, things just bounce off of me or I state things as facts sometimes with nothing behind it.

Next. Can you find yourself wandering in a maze of feelings, thoughts and associations, which scatter and then come together in one conclusive sentence, or even one word different upon repetition of a given subject matter? I'm talking about ways of thinking specifically when going below the surface of consciousness (my personal interest). The communication inside (for a singleton as well) is not the same. You might require the proverbial bread crumb trail to connect the dots, and might forget how everything fits together if there is no physical documentation to work with. Even then, the connections can become fuzzy, which I regard as normal, but the conclusion is clear, though even that can diffuse into what you will come to regard as normalcy for you, or be lost if you don't claim it.

I have done that many, many times wandering around in a maze of scattered thoughts and feelings and how at some point everything just comes together and I can connect the dots and find some understanding and logic about what is going on and why. I find I can get there through our writings also, but once words are spoken out loud, it is like I lose ALL of that knowledge and nothing connects anymore or makes any sense at all. It is like we are fumbling idiots trying to explain something that we had such a grasp on and then we totally lose it.

Yes, I am describing part of my life experience, in which one of my interests is to examining my deepest motivations and wishes, along with the outside influences on them. All of this to make right decisions, and to understand my mistakes (because they will be most certainly repeated if I can't connect with Me, and separate that from what has been expected of me........).

That is a very profound statement. I also believe that if we don’t understand our mistakes, we are definitely going to make them again. It is always so hard to distinguish the difference from, if I am doing this because it is expected of me or am I doing it because I want to do it. I haven’t gotten to the point yet to know what we want.

But, I digress. I am not a T. Nor have I been in T. So, I ain't no expert. But, I know some things via my own very hard work, especially over the past 8 or so years. I know that thinking, feeling, talking and writing can give different sounding results for a number of reasons, not the least of which is differences in ability to express, or even access itself.

I am hoping what I've written has helped. I also feel that if you can find a way to articulate why you are reacting as you are, maybe an evolving solution can be found, rather than an all-or-nothing demand. For instance is there a way that letters can be used separately, and some agreed upon subjects brought into the spoken world? Maybe T can give short replies, in writing, and spoken in the same way, during a session. Then maybe a quiet time. Do you doodle or draw....., maybe including 1-5 written words. Then, go to a different topic that can be discussed. I mean, work with it.

You bring up a very interesting thought I had when I read this paragraph. We have never had a problem listening to our T’s words as she talked. They don’t usually penetrate us through our barriers, but we do hear her. But I got frightened once she told us that she was going to start bringing up the information that was sent to her through the emails and she thinks we need to start talking about that. You see the information we give her is in story form. They are bits of what we like to call our headlines of our lives. To us they are just stories. But we gotten frightened of her words now and how she was going to use those words and that is when our words got lost and things went silent. No thoughts, no words, nothing…….
To articulate why we are reacting this way….well for one speaking the words of the story out loud, to be honest, it will make it real somehow. It will no longer be one of those dreadful fairy tales that you are always trying to find out what the moral of the story is. Connecting to it, something we don’t do well with. And to find out that the moral of these stories actually are that it was our fault and we are indeed awful people is something we can’t bear to live with.
Also our reality makes complete sense to us but as I have learned trying to go through this process, it doesn’t make a lot a sense to Ts. Well it might make sense to them why we think the way we think but it is not healthy or the way it is supposed to be. And that confuses the hell out of us. The way we think is ALL we know and makes everything else in our lives make sense. And all it takes is one thing thrown out of whack, one piece of anothers logic injected to our own and it thrown everything off and chaos breaks out.

Indeed, sometimes a completely direct approach is impossible. I don't mean that sneaky means replace that. Not at all! I'm trying to remember an example. It might have to do with looking at star formations in the sky. Okay, let's say it is. If one looks directly, one fails to see properly. But focusing a bit to the side, and yes, it all comes into focus. Or, direct confrontation is not always the best route, and can lead to lack of clarity. Not everything can, or wants to be looked at that way.

I think you are absolutely right. And agree with that statement 100%. Well put!

There is another thought rumbling on below right now and it has to do with my old T. She was the first person to meet some of our “others” inside. They would talk to her and didn’t have much of a problem telling her things (to a point). But things ended badly with her. We quit seeing her because we felt like she just plowed over our feelings and wasn’t able to hear us. She taught us a lot of things and some of those things we carry with us to our new T but we are finding they don’t mesh well with her and she doesn’t work that way. I tell myself ALL the time this new T is different and she should not have to pay for the hurts from old T but it is not very effective when it comes right down to it. Another thing I don’t know how to get past. We are afraid of her getting in here and mucking things all up for us again and then leaving us to put it all back together again. The thing is I just realized……..when we are left to put things back together again by ourselves……..we put them back the way they were before they got all messed up, it is ALL we know, it is what we are most comfortable with, it is familiar. So all that mucking around with things to think we will come out with a different outcome or picture on our own, doesn’t happen. Now that makes a lot of sense and something I can totally understand. How can we make a different picture of all the stuff in there without knowing how to do it?
Something to definitely think about.
Tweeter this response to us was absolutely awesome and appreciated more than you can imagine. You gave us a lot of think about. Thank you so much.
Tangled
"You may not remember what someone says or does, but you will never forget how they made you feel" Mac Anderson.
08-07-2013, 12:36 AM
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mosaic Offline
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#7
RE: new developement
this might sound simplistic, but you start by talking about how hard it is to talk about the things that you've written.

are you under the impression that your t expects that you will come in and just volunteer information, or will the t be using the emails to guide your conversations?

it makes sense that you are still leery of letting this new t "in"... and talking to her about those fears is also a good place to start

we hope you can navigate this with your t.
08-07-2013, 08:33 AM
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Tangled Web Offline
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#8
RE: new developement
Hi mosaic. We have talked about how hard it is for us to start talking about things, it didn't change anything. I know we still need to explore that part with her some more. It is the blank feeling I feel when everything just gets erased that I would like to figure out. It is hard to explore things with people when you lose your words in the process. It is frustrating. I think she will using the emails to guide the conversations and I hope she doesn't expect us to just volunteer information.(I don't think she does).
But you did just give me a good idea I think.........I will email her about the block and the loss of words and then we can talk about that email. That just might work. Then she will have that information and we can talk about that in the session.
Thanks mosaic!
TW
"You may not remember what someone says or does, but you will never forget how they made you feel" Mac Anderson.
08-07-2013, 12:11 PM
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tweeter Offline
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#9
RE: new developement
(08-07-2013, 12:11 PM)Tangled Web Wrote: Hi mosaic. We have talked about how hard it is for us to start talking about things, it didn't change anything. I know we still need to explore that part with her some more. It is the blank feeling I feel when everything just gets erased that I would like to figure out. It is hard to explore things with people when you lose your words in the process. It is frustrating. I think she will using the emails to guide the conversations and I hope she doesn't expect us to just volunteer information.(I don't think she does).
But you did just give me a good idea I think.........I will email her about the block and the loss of words and then we can talk about that email. That just might work. Then she will have that information and we can talk about that in the session.
Thanks mosaic!
TW

Hi Tangled Web and Mosaic. Interesting exchange. These words particularly impressed me:
"It is the blank feeling I feel when everything just gets erased that I would like to figure out. It is hard to explore things with people when you lose your words in the process."

Is it that not only do you lose ability to verbalize an answer, but that you are aware that the words that were there were erased? It could be that someone inside defensively erased them. This is view could be supported by what Mosaic said about letting someone "in."

An image came to mind that seems appropriate, but I'm not sure how to translate. I'll begin and we'll see where it goes. I've been watching a series, Heartland, which I personally find comforting on a number of levels. There is a character, Amy, who is a horse whisperer.
Communication with other animals is of interest to me because it is largely nonverbal, and the bottom line is establishing trust. I guess you could call Amy a horse T, as this is her work (the animals are not owned by her).
One of the primary exercises of this profession is quietly, and without force, bringing about a situation in which a horse willingly follows behind this person as she walks around a fenced-in area.

Thing is, that when you described some of the others talking with former T, in my vision of this, everyone was walking together, relaxed. That was before I came up with this parallel consciously/verbally.

In relationships, especially those where there is a strong component of following, at least for me, the foundation is non-verbal. It has to do with a resonance of common ground leading to trust. Far from foolproof, it's how I am. How someone really gets my attention. When I first follow, I can get skittish shortly after. In fact, it's a time when unfortunate misunderstandings can occur. That being said, the times of introduction and first followings need to be slow (but not as a tree sloth) and deliberate. Then, maybe the heart can speak, apart from and of its pain.
This is one example (people are different, don't do everything in the same order or in exactly the same way). Take from it what you find useful.

tweets
"Even the very emptiest of the emptiest
Has a false bottom, a false bottom."
08-13-2013, 11:53 AM
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Tangled Web Offline
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#10
RE: new developement
Hi Tweets

Is it that not only do you lose ability to verbalize an answer, but that you are aware that the words that were there were erased? It could be that someone inside defensively erased them.

I am more aware of the fact that I should have some kind of reaction or thoughts about what is going on but I don't. I would agree with maybe someone defensively erased them from inside, but EVERYTHING is erased and I don't know anyone inside that has that much power to do that.
I do a lot of processing and figuring things out on my own and analyzing things. Finding the logic to things has become very important to me. But I cannot find any logic when the thoughts are gone and the words generally come from those thoughts. I love the image of the horses finding trust and following her.
My block or whatever it was has lifted now. I now have thoughts and words back and feel somewhat connected to myself again. I have no idea how this happened but I am thankful it has.

For me in face to face relationships I find the non verbal languages really complicates things for us. I guess that is why I prefer to have conversations with people through writing or IMing or texting. It takes away the tones and the non verbal issues. Actually my best friend in my life is someone who I never met face to face in person and we have built a very good friendship through IMing.

With my T in the face to face relationship she appears to be understanding and accepting and her nonverbal language hasn't been an issue thus far. She speaks in neutral tones so it doesn't put us on edge. It took us awhile to get used to her unsureness when she was asking us questions, like she would stumble over her words or not sure if she should say what she was going to say. Or she was worried about phrasing it properly because she was worried that we would take it the wrong way. It was taken at first as a lack of confidence on her part because she didn't seem very definite, but now I guess I can see her as being more human and cautious, which might not necessarily be such a bad thing.

I got a little off topic there, sorry.
I saw my T today. And it is interesting that the conversation I had with her and my friend afterwards had a lot to do with your comment..........
the times of introduction and first followings need to be slow (but not as a tree sloth) and deliberate. Then, maybe the heart can speak, apart from and of its pain.

The process has been started today and I felt like it was going much too slow and I wanted this step to be done with already, but it is necessary to go through it slowly and with every step being taken I realize it is so deliberate and necessary. This time I am able to see what is in front of me and where the next step will take me. I can stand on this step and see what it is I am standing on because I am able to talk to her about it and she is good at listening and understanding. Before I was jumping so far ahead and it was no wonder I didn't know how to get there.
When you say maybe then the heart can speak..........We were talking today about my defenses and how they kick in and we were talking about strength and being vulnerable. So this is what I learned today.........I guess I have always measured my strength in how thick and strong my walls were and how well I was able to keep it all together and handle everything that came my way without showing any signs of weakness in those walls. Vulnerable, being vulnerable in my world is a sign of weakness. Well then I got talking to my friend about your heart. And had this thought, maybe-and this is just a thought-you should measure your strength on how strong your heart is not on how strong your protection around your heart is.
Now that is a very interesting concept. Because when I look at my heart, I see this fragile, weak damaged heart that is protected beyond belief. So protected that I cannot even gain access to it. And it is understandable that it is so fragile and acceptable but imagine if --maybe the heart can speak, apart from and of its pain--and heal, how strong that will make us if the heart can heal. Now that is a completely different way of looking at things. It is amazing to me actually seeing what a strong healthy heart would look like and what a difference that would make to all of us.

So I am not sure if this is where you were going with your post or not but this is what I took from it and I thank you
Emma
"You may not remember what someone says or does, but you will never forget how they made you feel" Mac Anderson.
08-13-2013, 09:30 PM
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tweeter Offline
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#11
RE: new developement
Hi Emma,
When I first read your post, I was unsure where I had been heading. A couple of weeks ago, I was just finishing a long answer, when my computer burped and I lost the whole thing. Just as well because I was following the thoughts and feelings to a new observation, and conclusion. I'm ready with the distilled version.

"And had this thought, maybe-and this is just a thought-you should measure your strength on how strong your heart is not on how strong your protection around your heart is."

It was in the last couple of weeks that I have come to a clear conclusion that defensiveness gets in the way of self-assertion and self-defense. Maybe fear or insecurity (doubts re ability to defend self) are expressed in a defensive way, which might be perceived as self-defense by the self. It is, if considered from that point of view, but nope.

I was unsettled, fortunately, by your talk of walls. I figured that out over time. The concept of a walled defense is an old one, but I had not looked beyond the surface of mine. I am, by nature an openhearted person. The emotional area surrounding my heart was an open book. What I did was retreat within, and there was a wall of defensiveness around me like a sheer curtain, to me. In truth, there was no defense at all.

A healthy heart. I had a glimpse of that about 3 years ago, because I felt it stir in myself. Shall we say I'm a work in progress.

Sorry for the delay,
tweets
"Even the very emptiest of the emptiest
Has a false bottom, a false bottom."
09-11-2013, 04:28 AM
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