On Denial (in answer to nats)
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tweeter Offline
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On Denial (in answer to nats)
Sorry. It's been many moons, and I'm swimming in the papers of bureaucracy: taxes (done); ID theft (I thought I was done); renewal of Medicaid; renewal of apt. lease (along with negotiating what can be done about apt. repairs, when doing them right, this time, would make me ill due to severe chemical fume allergies); etc.

Denial is basically a lie to one's self, and to others. It's: accepting the unbearable as bearable (making the best of things, making excuses or accepting excuses for another person's disappointing behavior, as promises of improvement are either given or fantasized, etc.); being irrationally positive in the face of evidence to the contrary, though there are certainly times when such hope eventually works out, making this approach alluring.

It's a common defense mechanism that apparently can go in and out of awareness.
I think that other people can be hurt by someone who appears to go in and out of denial -- exhibiting awareness of a deficiency, or unhappiness, and then, maybe an hour or so later singing the praises of a situation or person, while denying the importance of what was said earlier, or denying it altogether. The person might involve one or more people to serve as buffers, which might lead to some taking frustrations out on someone who really has nothing to do with the crux of the problem. That person becomes a victim of the lie(s), possibly an excuse for another person's behavior.
Something like this could be a manipulative scheme for gain, which is not denial at all. Sure. I also believe it can be both at once, with the gain compensating for what is lacking in that person's life. Either way, emotional harm can be done, as well as social damage. Not good for anyone.

The above can escalate to abuse and sabotage of the buffer, or helper, when that person (who had been told that his/her happiness was very important, and was encouraged to find his/her own relationship, for instance) finds what could be an important friend or romantic interest. The denial extends to statements that the helper is being protected. An apology might be given, only to be immediately followed by a statement which denies wrongdoing. The helper is made to feel at fault for the resulting unhappiness. There can be thr**ts against the helper and the person trying to be friendly.

This is most effective where the helper is in some way dependent on the person in denial. It can take time to see that you're not free, to make sure you're not goin' nowhere or deriving joy from someone else......., or even via your own company without the person in denial.

I think that emergence from denial is very painful, and sometimes the other person doesn't want to put in the work. Consequently, a helper/buffer might be expected to be unfulfilled, and to go into denial re his/her life as well.
It is wise to realize over time that it is unlikely that a person in chronic, valid denial behavior (making do) which includes other factors, will change without immense, consistent effort. People like that can have wonderful qualities, but something is twisted up inside.

I hope I've answered your question.
tweeter
"Even the very emptiest of the emptiest
Has a false bottom, a false bottom."
(This post was last modified: 03-17-2014, 02:29 AM by tweeter.)
03-17-2014, 02:11 AM
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nats Offline
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#2
RE: On Denial (in answer to nats)
hi tweeter, thanks so much for coming back and responding to this in the midst of your ongoing battles. wish we could remember more precisely what question this is in answer to (we remember a question, just not what - the joys of a dodgy memory). we see denial as an avoidance. yes, perhaps in all cases, it's acceptance of a lie in place of a truth for the purposes of reducing pain or reducing confusion. it's a particularly difficult one to avoid entirely b/c we as humans naturally prefer to avoid pain and uncertainty/confusion. unfortunately, even the best life is full of pain and uncertainty.
Blush Learn how to manage conflict, because the greater the level you can tolerate, the more freedom you will retain - E. Walsh Smile
03-18-2014, 10:24 AM
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tweeter Offline
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RE: On Denial (in answer to nats)
(03-18-2014, 10:24 AM)nats Wrote: hi tweeter, thanks so much for coming back and responding to this in the midst of your ongoing battles. wish we could remember more precisely what question this is in answer to (we remember a question, just not what - the joys of a dodgy memory). we see denial as an avoidance. yes, perhaps in all cases, it's acceptance of a lie in place of a truth for the purposes of reducing pain or reducing confusion. it's a particularly difficult one to avoid entirely b/c we as humans naturally prefer to avoid pain and uncertainty/confusion. unfortunately, even the best life is full of pain and uncertainty.

I do remember that the thread in question was about something else, and I happened to mention denial in passing. Then, you chimed in.

I had been annoyed with myself because I have moments when I not only have clarity but also brevity. In fact, both often occur together. A bit of heaven. I had been in deep think about denial, which is a complicated mechanism and not as isolated in its operation as I had thought. When I got past that speed bump, I wrote something short (Feb. 6), but I lost it. Today it was found. Everything I wrote to you still holds, but this is the crux of it, and could stand on its own.
Here is a rewrite of it:

I have realized that denial can be seen as a version of playing d**d. Insensitive, not only to reality, but also to real needs and feelings, in order to stay safe or avoid unbearable pain.
Let's say an accomplished denial artist, let's call he/she Q, insists that the helper/buffer described previously, share and be synchronized to the state of denial as experienced by Q. Also, buffer person is expected to turn away from his/her own feelings and pursuit of happiness, and is scolded that Q is taking action to prevent pursuit of these things for his/her good. Q (now also an ab*s*r) is acting to protect by isolating the other person from those situations. The person in denial will ruin another person's life in order to avoid challenges to his/her denial loop status quo by controlling, controlling, controlling. At the root of this is anger and jealousy from whatever origins are relevant to the situation. This has the potential of escalating, and IMO could become as bad as getting too close to a malicious narcissist.
The person who has acted as a confidant and buffer ceases to exist as a person and is expected to live to serve one in denial (who is unhappy with that life....., but can't find the strength to change). Q is not only in denial re personal life, but also as regards someone (maybe more than one) else. What can be seen as justified action depends on many factors, including character.

Guess that's it.

tweets
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"Even the very emptiest of the emptiest
Has a false bottom, a false bottom."
(This post was last modified: 03-18-2014, 11:40 AM by tweeter.)
03-18-2014, 11:23 AM
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Tangled Web Offline
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RE: On Denial (in answer to nats)
We have been following this discussion on denial and would like to chime in here. Although we respect your views on denial tweeter and we find some common ground in what you are saying we also disagree with somethings also. Denial for us has been our saving grace. When I read your posts regarding this , you paint such a dark picture of people who deny things. I never really saw denial as a person believing a lie and maybe it is. To us denial kept us functioning and has proven to be a very effective way to cope with things. And I don't really see it as such a bad thing. But like you said earlier it is very complex and complicated and it does have it's downfalls also.
Tangled
"You may not remember what someone says or does, but you will never forget how they made you feel" Mac Anderson.
03-18-2014, 11:09 PM
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RE: On Denial (in answer to nats)
(03-18-2014, 11:09 PM)Tangled Web Wrote: We have been following this discussion on denial and would like to chime in here. Although we respect your views on denial tweeter and we find some common ground in what you are saying we also disagree with somethings also. Denial for us has been our saving grace. When I read your posts regarding this , you paint such a dark picture of people who deny things. I never really saw denial as a person believing a lie and maybe it is. To us denial kept us functioning and has proven to be a very effective way to cope with things. And I don't really see it as such a bad thing. But like you said earlier it is very complex and complicated and it does have it's downfalls also.
Tangled

Of course. The apparent purpose, and I believe it is so, is to temporarily protect people from something too painful to deal with at the time. I see it as a form of going into shock, including varying degrees of functionality according to the individual.

The dark picture I painted was a matter of pushing the envelope, based on reality, even if an extreme one. I don't know the prevalence of that sort of outcome. I just know it occurs.

I feel that deep denial, from which one peeks out after a couple of months, and then kicks out the door because it's based on a lie (or more than one), can be bad. Why? Because during elapsed time in la la land, I could have turned things around, at actual risk to myself. Wearing blinders as to what was going on (so giving someone the benefit of the doubt, which was not warranted) did irreparable harm. I was trying to keep safe in a situation so full of double signals, I couldn't see straight. My life was taken away during, and before, that time in fantasy-land under circumstances that had been escalating within another person who had lost himself in a denial roller coaster which I didn't comprehend.

Be that as it may, I have taken your words to heart. I was not considering how the dynamics of denial could differ in a multiple. Know what? I can't. There are too many variables within an inner family. With that perspective, and my limitations, I got a nonverbal glimpse, of why the word "lie" bothered you. Something untrue is not always a lie in the realm of denial. It can be denial of the unthinkable by a child or adult because... the sun will rise on another day. I think I view the child perspective better, which makes sense.

I've seen times in myself and, primarily in someone else, of unconsciously (because it happens so fast) accepted lies. Like being a hooked fish. It's obvious enough, after the fact. That was what I was referring to. You pointed out the possibility of something else. I agree.

thank you,
tweeter
"Even the very emptiest of the emptiest
Has a false bottom, a false bottom."
03-23-2014, 09:23 AM
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Tangled Web Offline
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RE: On Denial (in answer to nats)
Hi Tweeter. I knew you were speaking from your personal experience and I didn't mean to invalidate that. (Sorry if this was the case). I can somewhat see where you are coming from and can understand your thoughts and the path they take. I just wanted to put a different spin on things and give another perspective. I agree that believing our parents are good when they are not and getting trapped in that denial is harming to us. I guess looking at the benefits of those beliefs and the risks and making a choice which will be worse is what we do now. I believe one day we will be able to eventually able to see the whole picture without having to deny things, just taking things one step at a time. I also agree denial happens automatically and I like the analogy of the fish on a hook because it does happen fast and you can be completely unaware of it until after the fact.
For me I guess I see denial as a warm fuzzy blanket that protects me from harm and keeps me safe. Not sure how true that actually is. I never really looked at the risks that could be happening while we are in that state. It is definitely something to think about. Thank you for that.

The word "lie" does bother me and you were right in noticing that. I guess it is a trigger word for us and that is my stuff.............but I can see how living in denial can be seen as living in a world filled with lies or even based on lies. Sometimes it hard to find the truth when all you have ever known is the lies...............
"You may not remember what someone says or does, but you will never forget how they made you feel" Mac Anderson.
03-23-2014, 11:55 AM
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Tangled Web Offline
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RE: On Denial (in answer to nats)
Wanted to add another thought regarding lies. I remember the first time my T asked me if my parents ever lied to me and I looked at her in disbelief. I was shocked those words even came out of her mouth and then when she told me they lied I thought I was going to fall on the floor. It is the child- like thinking that gets me. I even told her it was a good thing they weren't around to hear her say that because she might not have any teeth left. I on the other hand have been told my whole entire life I was liar and I was unable at that time to see my parents as liars. It just didn't make sense to me, nothing did when I tried to see them as that. Once I started looking at trying to see my parents as lying to us, things started to crumble for me inside and nothing made sense anymore. The place I always go to when this comes up is by asking myself well if that is true then what does that say about this........or what does it mean then about that..........? Those are hard truths to swallow for us. I can however say my parents lied to me now. I just don't know exactly which ones are lies and which ones are the truth..........that is where we struggle in distinguishing the difference. My T can tell me that what they said was a lie but how do I know she isn't lying to me also? Just because she is a T doesn't necessarily make her right. But now we are getting into the trust issues we have so I think we will stop here. Thanks for having this discussion with me, I think it is a very good discussion to have.
"You may not remember what someone says or does, but you will never forget how they made you feel" Mac Anderson.
03-23-2014, 12:21 PM
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News/Information  RE: On Denial (in answer to nats)
(03-23-2014, 11:55 AM)Tangled Web Wrote: Hi Tweeter. I knew you were speaking from your personal experience and I didn't mean to invalidate that. (Sorry if this was the case). I can somewhat see where you are coming from and can understand your thoughts and the path they take. I just wanted to put a different spin on things and give another perspective. I agree that believing our parents are good when they are not and getting trapped in that denial is harming to us. I guess looking at the benefits of those beliefs and the risks and making a choice which will be worse is what we do now. I believe one day we will be able to eventually able to see the whole picture without having to deny things, just taking things one step at a time. I also agree denial happens automatically and I like the analogy of the fish on a hook because it does happen fast and you can be completely unaware of it until after the fact.
For me I guess I see denial as a warm fuzzy blanket that protects me from harm and keeps me safe. Not sure how true that actually is. I never really looked at the risks that could be happening while we are in that state. It is definitely something to think about. Thank you for that.

The word "lie" does bother me and you were right in noticing that. I guess it is a trigger word for us and that is my stuff.............but I can see how living in denial can be seen as living in a world filled with lies or even based on lies. Sometimes it hard to find the truth when all you have ever known is the lies...............


Not to be concerned that I felt invalidated by your comments. I was sure that wasn't your intent, and I was fine. I'm also not trying to invalidate you. It seems that our coming from different directions is most enlightening. Thank you.

In seeking to understand your feelings, I backed up to childhood, when fact and fiction sometimes are not clearly divided. It's part of normal development to learn that. I think a child needs to be taught what lying is, via observation and direct instruction. Plenty can go amiss. We both know that.

Actually, the verbalized grief I've encountered re lies and denial occurred in adulthood for the most part. I don't think denial was very operative. I've always been generally super honest, and prone to facing things, rather than turning away. What I've recently realized in the comings and goings of meeting people, especially young kids who just look at you and know what you're about and bring that about, was that I can flee from genuine affection or love because I'm afraid of what follows, what followed when I was a little one. I knew both parents were nuts by age 4. I also knew they didn't love me and it wasn't my fault. If it hadn't been for my grandfather (who passed when I was 4), I don't know what would have happened to me. He was a timid man, unfortunately.

Thing is, outside of my interactions with him, I didn't know how it felt to be normally loved, or to love. Because of what has happened to me over the past 3 years, I went on a journey alone. I realized that my previous associations with men were all wrong for me, and I didn't know the difference.. One way or another, I was lied to, often by men who lied to others, and to themselves.

Because of my upbringing, I was unsocialized, though by nature a trusting and friendly person, accustomed to emotional abuse and some physical, to the point that ... I told a friend of someone we both knew about a situation, without all the details, but the truth as far as it went.. We don't need to go into it to get the point across. Thing is, when he told me "never to let anyone treat me like that again," I didn't know what he was talking about then, and for many years following. It isn't that I didn't think I was worthy of being loved; it was that I didn't know what it meant, or how to search for what suited me.

One could say I was so naive that I didn't understand love, and so abused that I would literally jerk away, or otherwise repel affection.
I didn't realize the latter until a couple of months ago, when I had a memory from infancy. Now I know. By the way, one of my major interests/endeavors is fostering communication between the unconscious and the more verbal and cognitive minds, according to the terms of the unconscious. It took me a long time. Very rewarding work I've done on my own.

As I'm writing this, I'm kind of getting stuck, cause how can one be in denial really, when completely bamboozled by the subject matter?
I feel like a walked thru life in a fog of avoidance, and got hurt anyhow. But, in Jan. of 2011 a chance meeting occurred that could have resulted in a romance, a very close friendship, or a talk with little or no followup. Whatever, it was a matter of two people who had just met and had an effect on each other. I needed the space to see it through. A third person ruined it.

To make a long story short, the trains separated, his going to NY (he doesn't live there) and mine going to MA, and I felt like I died. What happened was that I went into denial. Three months later, after I had been paying attention to my appearance and getting ready to see him again, I looked around and realized that he wasn't coming back. That led to a lot of changes.

That's how I came to equate denial to playing d**d to one's own feelings, and those of others. I also see it in someone else. I still feel that way. It wasn't comforting to me, even though I was also trying to have a roof over my head and not be h*rm*d by the irrational third party (no I was not married, nor in a relationship. Long story.). I eventually got the support to move to NM and then to NY, where I am living in the same building where I spent most of my miserable childhood. The neighborhood is very different than it was in most ways. I'm not one for flashbacks, and have had only one, which gave me an insight I had not suspected. But then, I hadn't asked that question before.

It isn't that I denied my needs. I don't think I knew what they were, just as I didn't have a clue as to how to pursue happiness or a successful life, and I should have had both. I had been groomed for failure by both parents, and socially isolated by them. I fulfilled their prophecy in the past, and now work to reverse the emotional damage done, and not do a repeat performance. The person who is in denial as to what he is doing and feeling, wants to lure me back into that scenario again. I will continue to say "No." I'm 68 and ill. I do what I can.

I realize this is more than you expected. I hope it wasn't too much.
tweeter
"Even the very emptiest of the emptiest
Has a false bottom, a false bottom."
03-23-2014, 05:04 PM
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RE: On Denial (in answer to nats)
(03-23-2014, 12:21 PM)Tangled Web Wrote: Wanted to add another thought regarding lies. I remember the first time my T asked me if my parents ever lied to me and I looked at her in disbelief. I was shocked those words even came out of her mouth and then when she told me they lied I thought I was going to fall on the floor. It is the child- like thinking that gets me. I even told her it was a good thing they weren't around to hear her say that because she might not have any teeth left. I on the other hand have been told my whole entire life I was liar and I was unable at that time to see my parents as liars. It just didn't make sense to me, nothing did when I tried to see them as that. Once I started looking at trying to see my parents as lying to us, things started to crumble for me inside and nothing made sense anymore. The place I always go to when this comes up is by asking myself well if that is true then what does that say about this........or what does it mean then about that..........? Those are hard truths to swallow for us. I can however say my parents lied to me now. I just don't know exactly which ones are lies and which ones are the truth..........that is where we struggle in distinguishing the difference. My T can tell me that what they said was a lie but how do I know she isn't lying to me also? Just because she is a T doesn't necessarily make her right. But now we are getting into the trust issues we have so I think we will stop here. Thanks for having this discussion with me, I think it is a very good discussion to have.

Hi, Tangled. It's an excellent discussion. Yes, I see the trust issue.

In many ways I'm not very verbal. My best work is non-verbal. I find that words often change what is meant and can get in the way when trying to communicate with self. I trust myself. I know enough to question and to listen to people with different experiences. Anyone can be fooled some of the time.

I don't remember very much of what my parents said. They constantly argued about who was right, which I think is idiotic. Who was lying, who wasn't lying. I would retire to my room and stay under radar. I remember one lie my mother said to me. She denied ab*s*ng me, and she had just done it. She said that was impossible, and it's possible she blamed me. She had this look on her face I'd never seen before, and I don't know where her head was at. I ended the conversation and got away from her. I think I was 8-10 years old. Emotionally, my parents were barely competent, IMO. I learned not to trust them.

But, if I have trust someone over a long period of time, and all of a sudden (even if I understand the mitigating circumstances involved) that changes, I am very much affected. That didn't apply to conversations with parents. I never felt supported by them, so what difference did it make what they said. That might sound rather matter-of-fact to you, but it's how I felt. I withdrew from their arena.

take good care,
tweeter
"Even the very emptiest of the emptiest
Has a false bottom, a false bottom."
03-23-2014, 06:01 PM
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RE: On Denial (in answer to nats)
Hi Tweeter. The information you shared wasn't too much for us. Thank you for sharing your views and experience with us. The question you asked about how can someone be denial when they are bamboozled by the subject the matter.............well that is where acceptance comes in. We have had information given to us by others inside and because of its content we are unable to accept it. We find we go back into old patterns of what was done to us and deny it and think it is all lies like we have been told soooo many times in the past by our mother. That is where the denial comes in. And the harder the situation might get pushed on us from inside forces the stronger the denial gets. If we can't accept something as truth that is where we go into denial. And I guess it has taken us a very long time to be ok with that. Learning how to give yourself permission to say it is ok to deny this right now because we are not ready to accept it yet. One day maybe we will be. So that is what we do because if we try to accept all things that come our way it buries us so quickly and we become completely overwhelmed and are unable to function. That is why denial has become our warm fuzzy blanket. It protects us. It helps us be able to function and live in this world to the best of our abilities right now. There has been way too many things happen in our life for me to just accept as truth and be fine with it. My parents especially my mother (who was my step-mother) were extremely big on denial. My T explained it this way to me once......She told me the reason they had to deny the things they did was because if they were to actually see what their actions were doing to me, what they did do to me by their own hands and actually seen it...... they wouldn't be able to live with themselves. Now I am not sure that is true or not. That mean they were people and not monsters and that would mean they had hearts and not stones for their hearts and I am not sure I am ready to see them that way yet. I just started seeing them as monsters sometimes and it gets way to confusing for me to see them as people. And my T agrees with me and encourages me to see them as the monsters they were so that helps. I guess there is a reason behind everyone having to deny something in their lives whether it is their behavior or an action whether we or them are aware of it or not. And all we can do is either except their version of their reality or leave it. It has been over 3 years now since we have walked away from our family, our step mother. Many people in my life never understood why we stuck around so long and didn't just leave sooner. ( I guess that is the perfect example on how denial can hurt you so badly.) That is a long story but to be honest we never believed that they were that bad, we always believed we were the ones who were bad and we were desperately looking for their love. That was the thing we could never give up on. They gave us our worth, they also gave us the rules on how to live in this world and we seriously didn't know any other way. We find ourselves still trying to live by those "rules" but they no longer work and that confuses us a lot. It almost feels like I have became a baby again just learning how to walk in a strange unsafe place called this world. It is scary and nothing ever make sense anymore. I don't know how to see the world through they eyes of someone being emotionally healthy...........and the way I used to see the world no longer applies either...........So what do you do? Well I drift.......drift in and out of denial and for that works for me. My denial doesn't hurt anyone on the outside........everything is kept hidden within me. I can now say I am glad my mother is no longer in my life.

So for us denial is because we are unable to accept the things that have happened.
This is how it works or this is how we see it
DENAIL--->ACCEPTENCE----->TRUTH----->FREEDOM
So our denial has kept us alive-------we have started to accept certain things as fact--------then we find the REAL truth in the facts --------which hopefully will lead us to freedom because the truth is supposed to set you free right?
WOW I think that is kinda amazing...............Thank you for helping me to put this into words.
TW
"You may not remember what someone says or does, but you will never forget how they made you feel" Mac Anderson.
03-24-2014, 12:18 PM
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Unity Offline
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#11
RE: On Denial (in answer to nats)
To me, there is also an operative side to memory or what you hold in your consciousness at a particular moment, like people say it's to remain functional, or there is not point either in visualizing all your memory all the time when this memory doesn't bring a relevant information to the situation without it to be really denial in that sense.

What makes it more confusing is that the relation between deinal or non denial and behavior is not necessarily as direct as just denying some fact or other.

Like let say at some point you want to put a screw in the wall, then there are memory that are factual, but also psycho-sensorial-motor , specially if you do this over and over again all day, there is whole neural pathway and automatism that build up in the mind to the point that you don't even have to think about it to put the screw. It's like memorized automatism that is also physical, motor, or physiological, and all sort of reaction-memory, that is alike to training in general, when automatic reaction are built up to face a situation, and usually for that you don't have much to think about in order to do it automatically.

When the mind undergo a stressing situation, or situation of danger or whatever, specially if it's repeated, it will also build automatism in reaction to it, which can also be more or less automatic, or beyond this side of only power to deny something or not.

In cognitive therapy they say that you can overcome most situation with the power of though basically, well i think even artifically maintaning a positive outlook on situation by default in case you can't be sure is a little bit the goal of this, and it's clear it's very easy to manipulate one's emotional state depending on what he believe about elements involved in a situation, and if those belief can be changed toward more positive look on a situation in itself i don't see why one's shouldn't do it or try not to deny possibily of things being a way or another if there is no reason for it, it might be more important in a way to be able to maintain positive state of mind about something than being right about it :p

buddha said all is illusion, and if you follow this, there is no special reason to be attached to a particular version of what we can think being the reality, or to deny some things about how we might think it is, as the goal is more toward reaching happyness or nivernaa in general rather than about denial, even if in the 4 way to happyness, it need recognizing dukka/suffering and understand the source of it. Denying a source of suffering will not get you toward hapyness i guess, but then as for being into risking bad trips just for the sake of not denying something, i'm not sure what the point of it :p
(This post was last modified: 05-25-2015, 11:18 AM by Unity.)
05-25-2015, 11:15 AM
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RE: On Denial (in answer to nats)
I would like to comment on this…………

In cognitive therapy they say that you can overcome most situation with the power of though basically, well i think even artifically maintaning a positive outlook on situation by default in case you can't be sure is a little bit the goal of this, and it's clear it's very easy to manipulate one's emotional state depending on what he believe about elements involved in a situation, and if those belief can be changed toward more positive look on a situation in itself i don't see why one's shouldn't do it or try not to deny possibily of things being a way or another if there is no reason for it, it might be more important in a way to be able to maintain positive state of mind about something than being right about it :p
We were convinced as a child that this was how people lived and ALL families were like this. Positives were drilled into or head repeatedly to the point of this is what we believed.
You say--- i don't see why one's shouldn't do it or try not to deny possibily of things being a way or another if there is no reason for it,---There is always a reason for denial imo-the truth is often hurtful but healing needs to take place by acceptance and accepting things the way they really were instead of the way you were made to believe they were. There is a difference.
it might be more important in a way to be able to maintain positive state of mind about something than being right about it-I disagree with this statement. I believe trying to maintain a positive frame of mind is important with some things and you always need to have some form hope but some things are just not positive and for us the sooner as we see that and accept it the more we will be able to move on and let those things go after dealing with them. A person I loved very much told me once—my childhood was a candy coated hell—if I remained positive in my thinking all I would have seen was the sweet tasty candy so to speak that always covered the hell beneath it. I believe you need to look at the whole picture with all its layers.
"You may not remember what someone says or does, but you will never forget how they made you feel" Mac Anderson.
05-25-2015, 05:30 PM
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Unity Offline
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#13
RE: On Denial (in answer to nats)
Yeah well cognitive therapy is not very good for dissociative kind of things, i did a bit of this, well it can be useful for superficial things, but it doesn't work that great in the absolute.

Ignoring source of suffering is never a good thing, and positive thinking can come at this price.

http://www.londonbuddhistvihara.org/fund_topics/fournoble.htm


The Four Noble Truths are:

Dukkha (suffering)
The causes of dukkha
The cessation of dukkha
The path leading to the cessation of dukkha


But budhism is more something aimed at attaining peace of mind.
05-25-2015, 06:15 PM
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nats Offline
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#14
RE: On Denial (in answer to nats)
we've never directly experienced CBT, but our understanding of it is that its primary benefit is it's quick and straightforward (all the things that effective DID therapy is not). however, it can't address deeper issues only the behaviours. so, it seems like it would be great for phobias or short-term fears (e.g. of cars after a minor traffic accident), but not for the kinds of issues most multiples struggle with. for that it just isn't sufficient.

also agree that buddhism, as with some other asian philosophies of life, can help us find meaning and acceptance if studied and practiced in depth. few people who come to it as adults ever get to this depth, so it provides more of a flavouring for life than a guiding philosophy. still, that's not necessarily a bad thing and we can pretend no deep knowledge of the topic. however, given the somewhat spiritual nature of the topic, we should probably move any discussion of buddhism to the spirituality forum.
Blush Learn how to manage conflict, because the greater the level you can tolerate, the more freedom you will retain - E. Walsh Smile
05-26-2015, 04:11 AM
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Unity Offline
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#15
RE: On Denial (in answer to nats)
In budhism i find there is more a concept of knowledge or memory that are mostly evaluated through their effect on the consciousness, for this it's close to cognitive therapy. Like the concept of noble truth are truth that bring happiness and peace of mind. But ignoring source of suffering cannot bring true peace of mind. "Better than thousand words is one word that bring peace" Wink
05-26-2015, 04:22 AM
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